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Mansour al-Hadj

What are the Prospects for Real Reform in Saudi Arabia?

Mansour Al-Hadj

July 11

Rough transcription:

Robert R. Reilly: Our speaker tonight as you know from the announcement is Mansour Al-Hajj who is the director of the reform project at the Middle East Media Research Institute. A year or two ago we had the president of MEMRI Yigal Carmen here. A couple of years ago while he was still vice-president of MEMRI [we had] Alberto Fernandez. So it’s a tremendous pleasure to welcome Mansour here this evening who has also done me an especially good turn when I was very concerned about the quality of the Arabic translation of the Closing of the Muslim Mind. I was able to take it to him and receive assurances that indeed the translators, who were basically a Sudanese team, had done a wonderful job and I certainly appreciated his help with that. Before joining MEMRI Mansour was a senior reporter for AAFAQ magazine, an Arabic news website focusing on reform and human rights in the Middle East. He’s well known on Capitol Hill where he’s given many briefings including the topic of movement of- movement of extremism in the Muslim world. He grew up in Saudi Arabia, the subject in which he will be talking tonight, and he’s written about that in a number of articles as well as some on the MEMRI website which I invite your attention to… most particularly… one of the more recent and extensive ones, “It is Impossible to Defeat Islamic Terrorism Without Reforming Islam.” An earlier one that you can find on MEMRI though it wasn’t first published there, “In my youth I was taught to love Death.” He obtained his BA in law from the International University of Africa and Khartoum Sudan in 2003. Please join me in welcoming Mansour al Hajj.

Mansour al-Hadj:

Thank you very much, Mr. Reilly. Thank you everybody for coming. My name is Mansour Al-Hadj. I was born and grew up in Saudi Arabia as he said my family is originally from Chad and Sudan the third generation in Saudi Arabia so my grandma moved there long time ago my mom grew up there I was born there and I have nephews and nieces in Saudi Arabia yet I don’t have the Saudi citizenship so I leave it to your imagination today are we speaking about the prospects of real reform in Saudi Arabia I know it’s a topic that a lot of people a lot of you are interested in but before doing that I would like to say that I have written so many articles and papers about Saudi Arabia one that I’m really very proud of was for the pH Fellows Program which is English for heritage language speakers program that is a government program with the Georgetown University and the simplest idea of this program is to train US citizens who are speakers of heritage languages such as Arabic Persian and some African languages and Pashtun order train them to work for the US government especially the Intel agencies and it’s a very useful program and I’m very proud to have been selected to that program so my paper on that program was supervised by the National Defense Agency which is one of our intelligence agencies and the title of my paper was Saudi Arabia’s Shia opposition. Talking about reform I would like to start with a story. So it’s a this story it’s an old traditional in the Arabic culture. The story goes that in this city the the river there was a river and that river is contaminated with insanity virus let’s say this way so whoever swims or drink from the river to an insane becomes insane and loses his or her mind so within a few months everybody in the this little town becomes- became insane and the King you know was trying to talk to them to regain their sanity but it was a helpless case so his assistant and and the people who advising him of course consultant told him to really either drink from the river or swim in it so he would be on the same page with his people that king was so smart and wise to do so in Saudi Arabia today I think we have a similar situation I’m not calling the Saudi people insane in fact I think the people of Saudi Arabia are contaminated with the love of freedom with the love of Liberty and with the love of their country the problem is the leadership is not on the same page with them and that would leave us with I in my opinion to a catastrophic result unless unless the younger leadership in Saudi Arabia whom I believe have historical opportunity to reform the country and to respond to the aspirations of the Saudi people there are three levels of oppressions in Saudi Arabia people in Saudi Arabia are oppressed politically religiously and socially and you can watch the news you can follow all the human rights organizations report on Saudi Arabia and you will find that currently Saudi Arabia has turned into police state we have a huge number of mass arrests and arresting those who are arrested these days or a few months ago are the finest people in Saudi Arabia college professors thinkers people with different ideas people who aspire to change their country to write a new history for their own country and unfortunately they’re behind bars as we speak right now in fact women have been arrested and in the latest wave of arrests these women are are are one of the bravest women in Saudi Arabia college professor like eternal fancy or a seasoned Yusuf a leading human rights for women right activist Eman enough Jan and Lou Jane and others so this is the political oppression part of of the problem in addition to that there is no freedom of expression in Saudi Arabia if you look at the Saudi papers I tweeted the other day that it is as if they were written by one person everything is the same you can’t find one single voice of dissent or acquisition I think this is extremely unhelpful extremely dangerous for the future of the country moving to the the second form of oppression in Saudi Arabia which is religious oppression people are getting oppressed religiously and by that I mean minorities in Saudi Arabia don’t have rights if we talk about the Shia my oneth minority Medina or in the eastern provinces they face what we call tech fear from the hobby chains installers and they are not allowed to build houses warships and they have been discriminated against in every aspect in Saudi Arabia they don’t get hired in higher positions in the Army or in the government and they are under constant of oppression even the Sunni ones talking about the Sufis in Saudi Arabia for example and this operation is not only in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia has exported Wahhabism around the world and the reason why they succeeded is not because that’s the purest version of Islam but because of the petrol dollars that they were able to convince people or hire people so or bring people in to Saudi Arabia to study that version of Islam and then go spread it around around the world as I said I was born and grew up in Saudi Arabia but I lived in Chad and Sudan and I can tell you my grandma did not use to my bedroom I did not cover her hair and you know when I talked to her in her when she was growing up in Chad covering the hair was not part of the tradition you know right now you see women in full burqa in one of the hottest countries on earth just imagine that and eat all that because of the Saudis so now some of the examples of the meatiness of this ideology you see a lot of conflicts in countries like Sudan and Chad between those who are supported or 1educated in Saudi Arabia and the local population because because locally most African countries are Maliki’s and they tend to be Sufis which is a sect that Mohave them consider outsider or consider not real Muslims so from Saudi Arabia this ideology that the ruling family in Saudi Arabia exported the problem abroad and that in teaching as we all know resulted in the creation of Jihadi groups starting from Al-Qaeda to ISIS and you know the Taliban and all these all of these groups teach what the current Saudi Arabia is teaching in in in Saudi school also within the religious oppression we had until recently according to the government women were not allowed to drive cars and they used to tell people you know it is Haram or it is not for the best interests if women drive cars yet thankfully now they are allowed to drive cars but however there is something called the male guardianship system which is a system that put all women under the control of their male relatives it’s from I don’t know if it if that system even was existed in the stone Age’s but it still it still existed in Saudi Arabia as we speak right now the women who were arrested recently this brave and fine woman the only reason they were arrested was because they wanted to establish a human rights organization to defend women to defend the women who are being oppressed by their own fathers and brothers and family members under the current Saudi system when these women get abused and go to the government police station they are told to contact their abusers to come pick them up so the general rule and all these women they wanted to create an organization where women who are have being abused by their own family member can find a safe house where they can live and stay until you know they can find something to do a safe place for safety reasons moving to the my third point which is social oppression in Saudi Arabia the Saudis I think are the only nation on earth who are who faces social oppression meaning interaction between men and women are prohibited creation of organization or groups people don’t have rights to establish even small organization where they can you know mingle and get together others so other form of social oppression is the fact that you know themale guardianship system where for the woman to travel she has to get a permission from a father or brother or even sometimes a son to get a passport or to get a ticket to travel now some people talk about that what Mohammed bin Salman known as MBS currently doing is not reform it’s not political reform it’s if he is just modernizing Saudi Arabia well I disagree I think if he is trying to modernize Saudi Arabia so that people need modernize so did people need a modern system a modern ruling system a constitution of Parliament elections they want to have freedom of expression freedom of gatherings all these elements are part of modernity and and if he is not modernizing the political system in Saudi Arabia I don’t think he is modernizing anything I really don’t like talking too much and missing a lot of points so I would really encourage everyone here to ask a lot of questions to close I would like to say go back to the initial story so there Saudi people are yearning for freedom yearning to take part in the future of their country and I strongly believe that MBS has a historic opportunist Oracle opportunity to reform the country by listening to hood to his people and I have an point that I would like to go quickly on about the prospect of real reform in Saudi Arabia so number one I would like to say freeing if we want to have a real reform in Saudi Arabia free all political prisoners and prisoners of conscience in Saudi Arabia this is my number one second calling for a national dialogue open a new page call all the opposition the one inside or outside in exile call back and start a national dialogue where you know should be received where it should discuss stuff should discuss a constitution for the country number three drafting a constitution so drafting drafting a constitution for them for the country a constitution that respects all human rights and protects all minorities and push the country and put the country on the right track also one of the prospect number four of real reform is investigate our or create a body that investigates all corruption or corruption charges against anybody right now Mohammed bin Salman is accusing everybody else of corruption but nobody 315 00:22:31,690 –> 00:22:36,310 can accuse him there is no body in Saudi 316 00:22:33,760 –> 00:22:39,820 Arabia or no organization can point a 317 00:22:36,310 –> 00:22:44,170 finger to him and talk about the way 318 00:22:39,820 –> 00:22:47,130 he’s spending the country’s resources we 319 00:22:44,170 –> 00:22:51,520 reform require establishing a body that 320 00:22:47,130 –> 00:22:55,570 has all the authorities to investigate 321 00:22:51,520 –> 00:23:02,050 and try everyone no one should be above 322 00:22:55,570 –> 00:23:05,530 the law my fifth point of prospect real 323 00:23:02,050 –> 00:23:09,490 reform is empowering Saudi woman and by 324 00:23:05,530 –> 00:23:14,170 empowering Saudi women is empowering 325 00:23:09,490 –> 00:23:17,620 Saudi women means putting them in 326 00:23:14,170 –> 00:23:23,140 leadership positions and elevating the 327 00:23:17,620 –> 00:23:26,230 male guardianship system and including 328 00:23:23,140 –> 00:23:29,440 them in government they have been 329 00:23:26,230 –> 00:23:31,150 suffering for decades 330 00:23:29,440 –> 00:23:34,900 in Saudi Arabia and they’re still 331 00:23:31,150 –> 00:23:38,400 suffering and they really need to have a 332 00:23:34,900 –> 00:23:42,340 say in the future of their country 333 00:23:38,400 –> 00:23:45,570 number six part of the prospect of 334 00:23:42,340 –> 00:23:49,300 reforming Saudi Arabia and exported its 335 00:23:45,570 –> 00:23:51,700 exportation of Wahhabism overseas Saudi 336 00:23:49,300 –> 00:23:55,750 Arabia and other countries have suffered 337 00:23:51,700 –> 00:23:58,990 from Wahhabism the entire world is 338 00:23:55,750 –> 00:24:06,010 currently suffering from this lethal 339 00:23:58,990 –> 00:24:10,990 ideology I would like to propose in 340 00:24:06,010 –> 00:24:15,850 reform Saudi Arabia religion and state 341 00:24:10,990 –> 00:24:20,290 should be completely separate but to 342 00:24:15,850 –> 00:24:25,770 have and also to promote in tolerance 343 00:24:20,290 –> 00:24:29,140 and interfaith dialogue among or between 344 00:24:25,770 –> 00:24:35,380 Saudi I mean between different Islamic 345 00:24:29,140 –> 00:24:40,090 sects and ungroup I think the only way 346 00:24:35,380 –> 00:24:44,500 we can promote tolerance and 347 00:24:40,090 –> 00:24:49,570 understanding is by letting different 348 00:24:44,500 –> 00:24:52,929 groups interact and try to either settle 349 00:24:49,570 –> 00:24:56,800 the differences or just live and let 350 00:24:52,929 –> 00:24:59,020 other live part of that can be done in 351 00:24:56,800 –> 00:25:01,000 the Holy Mosque in the Grand Mosque in 352 00:24:59,020 –> 00:25:03,550 Mecca where we used to be 353 00:25:01,000 –> 00:25:05,920 they used to be corners for the Maliki 354 00:25:03,550 –> 00:25:09,100 Mossad for the chakra has enough about 355 00:25:05,920 –> 00:25:12,580 all the Muslims right now only Wahhabism 356 00:25:09,100 –> 00:25:16,480 is there so in a reformed Saudi Arabia I 357 00:25:12,580 –> 00:25:20,380 would like to see all the Muslim sects 358 00:25:16,480 –> 00:25:23,590 have you know have a place to practice 359 00:25:20,380 –> 00:25:27,190 or to teach their own ideology this is 360 00:25:23,590 –> 00:25:29,640 how Muslim can learn that if if their 361 00:25:27,190 –> 00:25:31,900 leaders can live together and can 362 00:25:29,640 –> 00:25:37,500 interact and can settle their 363 00:25:31,900 –> 00:25:37,500 differences they can do so too 364 00:25:39,390 –> 00:25:47,950 number eight was allowing establishment 365 00:25:45,760 –> 00:25:51,340 of political parties in Saudi Arabia I 366 00:25:47,950 –> 00:25:56,230 would like I would like to say that this 367 00:25:51,340 –> 00:25:59,910 is one of the things that people are 368 00:25:56,230 –> 00:26:02,950 looking forward to in a new Saudi Arabia 369 00:25:59,910 –> 00:26:06,040 right now they don’t have any part they 370 00:26:02,950 –> 00:26:07,960 don’t are they are not included excuse 371 00:26:06,040 –> 00:26:11,590 me and in 372 00:26:07,960 –> 00:26:14,289 in participating and making of their 373 00:26:11,590 –> 00:26:19,629 countries and the decision-making so 374 00:26:14,289 –> 00:26:24,159 when they are included by taking part in 375 00:26:19,629 –> 00:26:26,080 political political debate or in the 376 00:26:24,159 –> 00:26:28,539 political system in Saudi Arabia I think 377 00:26:26,080 –> 00:26:30,970 they would feel that they have a stake 378 00:26:28,539 –> 00:26:37,690 in the future of their countries and it 379 00:26:30,970 –> 00:26:40,360 would be helpful number 9 is regulating 380 00:26:37,690 –> 00:26:43,240 the budget the budget that is allocated 381 00:26:40,360 –> 00:26:45,639 to the royal family for our family in 382 00:26:43,240 –> 00:26:49,269 Saudi Arabia that but nobody knows how 383 00:26:45,639 –> 00:26:52,149 much money they spend it is not listed 384 00:26:49,269 –> 00:26:55,990 in the budget when the annual budget get 385 00:26:52,149 –> 00:26:58,960 revised there is no nothing since this 386 00:26:55,990 –> 00:27:04,419 is this this much is allocated to the or 387 00:26:58,960 –> 00:27:08,070 her family so in a new Saudi Arabia you 388 00:27:04,419 –> 00:27:12,789 know the royal family should should have 389 00:27:08,070 –> 00:27:15,009 unlimited should have a regulated budget 390 00:27:12,789 –> 00:27:17,470 that people know that this is going to 391 00:27:15,009 –> 00:27:20,470 the royal family they are in the South 392 00:27:17,470 –> 00:27:22,299 thousands now and I think they spent or 393 00:27:20,470 –> 00:27:24,340 they have more money than most of the 394 00:27:22,299 –> 00:27:31,330 Saudi people and this is extremely 395 00:27:24,340 –> 00:27:35,409 unfair my last point is empowering 396 00:27:31,330 –> 00:27:39,100 minority groups in Saudi Arabia let them 397 00:27:35,409 –> 00:27:42,429 have a say that them practice their 398 00:27:39,100 –> 00:27:45,220 religion or their belief in whatever 399 00:27:42,429 –> 00:27:47,919 they believe and when I say minorities I 400 00:27:45,220 –> 00:27:50,529 also mean people who don’t believe in 401 00:27:47,919 –> 00:27:54,279 anything there is a huge number of 402 00:27:50,529 –> 00:27:58,659 people leaving Islam in Saudi Arabia and 403 00:27:54,279 –> 00:28:01,590 they cannot be public about it so you 404 00:27:58,659 –> 00:28:05,889 can only see them on Facebook or Twitter 405 00:28:01,590 –> 00:28:10,749 using you know unreal names to hide 406 00:28:05,889 –> 00:28:13,929 their identity because if their family 407 00:28:10,749 –> 00:28:17,879 found out they will be in a lot of 408 00:28:13,929 –> 00:28:17,879 trouble thank you 409 00:28:24,030 –> 00:28:30,660 please use the microphone and speak 410 00:28:27,580 –> 00:28:30,660 directly into it 411 00:28:47,299 –> 00:29:19,190 I mean I would like simply to say listen 412 00:29:16,309 –> 00:29:23,119 listen to the people listen to the 413 00:29:19,190 –> 00:29:27,169 people the it’s not you currently he is 414 00:29:23,119 –> 00:29:31,179 only listening to the people who say yes 415 00:29:27,169 –> 00:29:34,039 to him they same to the other voices the 416 00:29:31,179 –> 00:29:34,850 the people that you putting in jail 417 00:29:34,039 –> 00:29:38,739 right now 418 00:29:34,850 –> 00:29:41,950 as I said organize national unity 419 00:29:38,739 –> 00:29:45,350 conference where everybody is included 420 00:29:41,950 –> 00:29:47,600 to have a say in the future of their 421 00:29:45,350 –> 00:29:50,119 country bring people together and see 422 00:29:47,600 –> 00:29:53,149 what they want to talk about what they 423 00:29:50,119 –> 00:30:19,399 want to see their country look like in 424 00:29:53,149 –> 00:30:22,789 10 or 15 or four years yes yeah they are 425 00:30:19,399 –> 00:30:29,720 the future of Saudi Arabia and I really 426 00:30:22,789 –> 00:30:32,600 think the sending Saudi people to the 427 00:30:29,720 –> 00:30:36,190 West is one of the greatest programs 428 00:30:32,600 –> 00:30:41,389 that the Saudi Arabia has done for its 429 00:30:36,190 –> 00:30:45,320 general its youth I am very happy to see 430 00:30:41,389 –> 00:30:49,820 thousands of Saudis come to the States 431 00:30:45,320 –> 00:30:52,730 or Australia or London or France and you 432 00:30:49,820 –> 00:30:55,159 know they will go back they will go back 433 00:30:52,730 –> 00:30:56,909 and they will want to have their country 434 00:30:55,159 –> 00:31:03,479 look exactly like the country 435 00:30:56,909 –> 00:31:05,220 they went and studied in currently a lot 436 00:31:03,479 –> 00:31:08,729 of them are not encouraged to go back 437 00:31:05,220 –> 00:31:13,409 because seeing what this young Crown 438 00:31:08,729 –> 00:31:17,429 Prince is doing is really hurting them I 439 00:31:13,409 –> 00:31:22,499 know some some of them who decided to 440 00:31:17,429 –> 00:31:24,479 stay here filed for asylum and stayed 441 00:31:22,499 –> 00:31:27,869 here and they don’t want to go back I 442 00:31:24,479 –> 00:31:29,970 know a lot of woman who came on a 443 00:31:27,869 –> 00:31:32,039 scholarship and decided to stay here you 444 00:31:29,970 –> 00:31:35,450 know why because of the current 445 00:31:32,039 –> 00:31:39,210 situation of women in Saudi Arabia so 446 00:31:35,450 –> 00:31:43,399 okay they are the future let them have a 447 00:31:39,210 –> 00:31:43,399 say in the future of their country 448 00:31:45,390 –> 00:31:48,499 [Music] 449 00:31:55,549 –> 00:31:59,460 absolutely not I think that was long 450 00:31:58,649 –> 00:32:01,619 overdue 451 00:31:59,460 –> 00:32:05,340 I think women should be really 452 00:32:01,619 –> 00:32:08,879 compensated for for not being allowed to 453 00:32:05,340 –> 00:32:13,669 drive for for the past 50 years and I 454 00:32:08,879 –> 00:32:19,799 actually called on women in Saudi Arabia 455 00:32:13,669 –> 00:32:22,649 not to drive until the woman who called 456 00:32:19,799 –> 00:32:26,909 the the woman right activists who are in 457 00:32:22,649 –> 00:32:28,769 jail right now are freed they are the 458 00:32:26,909 –> 00:32:33,479 one who started the campaign for them 459 00:32:28,769 –> 00:32:37,200 and I really think every Saudi woman who 460 00:32:33,479 –> 00:32:40,859 took – you know who drove the car is 461 00:32:37,200 –> 00:32:45,210 betraying this woman because anyway 462 00:32:40,859 –> 00:32:48,389 because they are the one who fought for 463 00:32:45,210 –> 00:32:51,720 this right not the princess not not MBs 464 00:32:48,389 –> 00:32:56,669 and they should take the credit not a 465 00:32:51,720 –> 00:32:59,820 Prince’s or MPs or nobody so I disagree 466 00:32:56,669 –> 00:33:03,929 with that and to really support this 467 00:32:59,820 –> 00:33:06,539 point I would like to say how come you 468 00:33:03,929 –> 00:33:07,950 allow people to women to drive and yet 469 00:33:06,539 –> 00:33:10,140 they can’t drive on 470 00:33:07,950 –> 00:33:13,140 and until they get a permission from a 471 00:33:10,140 –> 00:33:17,480 father or a mother or a brother or son 472 00:33:13,140 –> 00:33:20,730 it’s unrealistic how come you arrest 473 00:33:17,480 –> 00:33:23,850 women who calls only intention was to 474 00:33:20,730 –> 00:33:26,940 create an organization to save women to 475 00:33:23,850 –> 00:33:29,520 rescue the one that are are oppressed by 476 00:33:26,940 –> 00:33:34,650 their own family members I really think 477 00:33:29,520 –> 00:33:37,440 it’s just a cosmetic thing it’s there is 478 00:33:34,650 –> 00:33:41,100 no country on earth where women can’t 479 00:33:37,440 –> 00:34:43,110 drive even even even in territories that 480 00:33:41,100 –> 00:34:45,300 are controlled by I well as I said NBS 481 00:34:43,110 –> 00:34:47,490 has a chance has an opportunity to 482 00:34:45,300 –> 00:34:49,919 really reform and change the country 483 00:34:47,490 –> 00:34:53,580 because he has all the power right now 484 00:34:49,919 –> 00:34:54,030 to do so the problem is he is not doing 485 00:34:53,580 –> 00:34:56,160 it 486 00:34:54,030 –> 00:34:58,500 the problem is is not listening to his 487 00:34:56,160 –> 00:35:01,320 people in Saudi Arabia there are groups 488 00:34:58,500 –> 00:35:04,520 of intellectuals for example there is 489 00:35:01,320 –> 00:35:09,240 the act proud husband it’s the 490 00:35:04,520 –> 00:35:11,120 Association for Association for civil 491 00:35:09,240 –> 00:35:13,500 and political rights in Saudi Arabia 492 00:35:11,120 –> 00:35:16,140 every single mum there almost every 493 00:35:13,500 –> 00:35:17,020 single member of this organization is 494 00:35:16,140 –> 00:35:19,180 India 495 00:35:17,020 –> 00:35:24,450 serving twenty two forty two sixteen 496 00:35:19,180 –> 00:35:29,800 years and you have dozens and dozens of 497 00:35:24,450 –> 00:35:33,700 of people who really want to take part 498 00:35:29,800 –> 00:35:38,020 in shaping their own countries you have 499 00:35:33,700 –> 00:35:41,080 now we have a wave of political 500 00:35:38,020 –> 00:35:44,830 activists who are in London some of them 501 00:35:41,080 –> 00:35:46,840 are here some of them in Australia the 502 00:35:44,830 –> 00:35:48,820 only reason why they stayed where they 503 00:35:46,840 –> 00:35:51,280 are right now because they couldn’t have 504 00:35:48,820 –> 00:35:54,370 a voice in their own country this is why 505 00:35:51,280 –> 00:35:57,280 they became found political activists 506 00:35:54,370 –> 00:36:00,570 and human rights activists if you open 507 00:35:57,280 –> 00:36:04,120 the door I assure you you will see 508 00:36:00,570 –> 00:36:07,420 millions of Saudis talking about their 509 00:36:04,120 –> 00:36:11,110 aspiration for freedom for liberty and 510 00:36:07,420 –> 00:36:14,170 for for a country that they can take 511 00:36:11,110 –> 00:36:30,430 part in in managing and now deciding its 512 00:36:14,170 –> 00:36:34,650 future this is a very good question I 513 00:36:30,430 –> 00:36:39,090 wrote something about an imam in in 514 00:36:34,650 –> 00:36:44,740 california I forgot the the city 515 00:36:39,090 –> 00:36:48,460 somewhere in California and looking at 516 00:36:44,740 –> 00:36:51,250 the website of this Islamic community in 517 00:36:48,460 –> 00:36:56,130 California I found out that this shape 518 00:36:51,250 –> 00:37:02,590 is teaching young Muslim there 519 00:36:56,130 –> 00:37:04,840 waha busy real Wahhabism the book the 520 00:37:02,590 –> 00:37:08,200 three principles of rasool allah la da 521 00:37:04,840 –> 00:37:11,860 and kitab pervade the book of monotheism 522 00:37:08,200 –> 00:37:13,630 and these are the books that turn me 523 00:37:11,860 –> 00:37:17,020 into a radical growing up in saudi 524 00:37:13,630 –> 00:37:20,170 arabia and i was astonished 525 00:37:17,020 –> 00:37:23,680 i was appalled to really see this case 526 00:37:20,170 –> 00:37:27,160 going on in here and i am sure there are 527 00:37:23,680 –> 00:37:27,970 a lot of muslim community teaching the 528 00:37:27,160 –> 00:37:30,370 same books 529 00:37:27,970 –> 00:37:34,660 so it is it is quite dangerous I haven’t 530 00:37:30,370 –> 00:37:39,490 done an extensive research about this 531 00:37:34,660 –> 00:37:43,930 phenomenon inside all cities or states 532 00:37:39,490 –> 00:37:46,320 but this is one example that you can it 533 00:37:43,930 –> 00:37:46,320 is very 534 00:38:03,190 –> 00:38:08,860 [Music] 535 00:38:12,150 –> 00:38:17,810 [Music] 536 00:38:20,480 –> 00:38:26,449 [Music] 537 00:38:36,170 –> 00:38:49,229 [Music] 538 00:39:13,480 –> 00:39:25,289 [Music] 539 00:39:18,799 –> 00:39:29,730 well yes there is a historical ties 540 00:39:25,289 –> 00:39:30,510 between the Wahabis and the absolute 541 00:39:29,730 –> 00:39:33,030 family 542 00:39:30,510 –> 00:39:33,720 there it is a known alliance between 543 00:39:33,030 –> 00:39:42,990 them 544 00:39:33,720 –> 00:39:48,859 I really think reform is possible as I 545 00:39:42,990 –> 00:39:52,559 said and proposed separation between the 546 00:39:48,859 –> 00:39:57,089 religion and the state this is the only 547 00:39:52,559 –> 00:40:00,299 way we can sideline the Wahabis and have 548 00:39:57,089 –> 00:40:06,089 the Saudi people take control of their 549 00:40:00,299 –> 00:40:08,760 country in the past as I said the 550 00:40:06,089 –> 00:40:11,329 government used to tell people that the 551 00:40:08,760 –> 00:40:16,369 religious establishment is the one 552 00:40:11,329 –> 00:40:23,220 preventing women from driving it took 553 00:40:16,369 –> 00:40:28,740 Royal Decree to end that so I am sure if 554 00:40:23,220 –> 00:40:31,529 if the king or Crown Prince MBs has the 555 00:40:28,740 –> 00:40:34,770 intention or the will to reform the 556 00:40:31,529 –> 00:40:40,819 country and to get rid of the religious 557 00:40:34,770 –> 00:40:43,859 establishment and take his take his 558 00:40:40,819 –> 00:40:47,339 legitimacy from his people the people 559 00:40:43,859 –> 00:40:49,410 who support him everybody in Saudi 560 00:40:47,339 –> 00:40:53,029 Arabia understand the danger of 561 00:40:49,410 –> 00:40:55,810 Wahhabism and of radicalism and of 562 00:40:53,029 –> 00:40:59,530 intolerance people 563 00:40:55,810 –> 00:41:03,940 people are tired of being bombed and I’m 564 00:40:59,530 –> 00:41:06,580 tired of this hateful preaching so there 565 00:41:03,940 –> 00:41:07,500 is a window of hope here by appealing to 566 00:41:06,580 –> 00:41:09,970 your people 567 00:41:07,500 –> 00:41:12,190 okay there is one point I didn’t mention 568 00:41:09,970 –> 00:41:15,790 my speech I don’t see any difference 569 00:41:12,190 –> 00:41:19,570 between Abu Bakr al-baghdadi the leader 570 00:41:15,790 –> 00:41:23,410 of Isis who who claims his of the 571 00:41:19,570 –> 00:41:27,160 Caliphate of the Muslims and wants to 572 00:41:23,410 –> 00:41:31,990 have Muslims pledge allegiance to him 573 00:41:27,160 –> 00:41:38,740 and the way that Saudi Arabia currently 574 00:41:31,990 –> 00:41:41,860 is using the same concept of bhaiyya to 575 00:41:38,740 –> 00:41:44,770 get legitimacy or to get approval from 576 00:41:41,860 –> 00:41:47,740 the people it’s the same concept so for 577 00:41:44,770 –> 00:41:51,730 me there is no but I would like to see 578 00:41:47,740 –> 00:41:55,900 nobody claiming to be to have any 579 00:41:51,730 –> 00:41:57,850 authority from God to have people follow 580 00:41:55,900 –> 00:42:01,330 him or give him a legions let’s just 581 00:41:57,850 –> 00:42:40,720 separate the religion from the state and 582 00:42:01,330 –> 00:42:47,290 have people have yes okay now I upgrade 583 00:42:40,720 –> 00:42:49,300 my sign there and I enjoyed media but 584 00:42:47,290 –> 00:42:51,640 right but we have to Shia and the Sunni 585 00:42:49,300 –> 00:42:57,820 to do it and of course they were 586 00:42:51,640 –> 00:43:03,370 fighting seems to be my strength of 587 00:42:57,820 –> 00:43:06,640 peace I may be a model do you know 588 00:43:03,370 –> 00:43:07,190 whether yours they’ve changed or there’s 589 00:43:06,640 –> 00:43:11,900 a dip 590 00:43:07,190 –> 00:43:14,980 or ensnare at the device in this between 591 00:43:11,900 –> 00:43:17,150 Saudi and moderate nitrates right there 592 00:43:14,980 –> 00:43:19,700 no there is no difference actually 593 00:43:17,150 –> 00:43:25,030 Bahrain is under the control of Saudi 594 00:43:19,700 –> 00:43:34,030 Arabia right now yes oh yes the Saudi 595 00:43:25,030 –> 00:43:37,550 army I would say invaded Bahrain 2012 596 00:43:34,030 –> 00:43:41,329 when there were protests in in Bahrain 597 00:43:37,550 –> 00:43:44,599 and and and and and Bahrain is currently 598 00:43:41,329 –> 00:43:47,270 surviving under surviving by Saudi 599 00:43:44,599 –> 00:43:48,369 Arabia Saudi Arabia actually the ones 600 00:43:47,270 –> 00:43:53,530 [Music] 601 00:43:48,369 –> 00:43:56,390 funding Bahrain as we say so even though 602 00:43:53,530 –> 00:43:59,390 Saudis good to Bahrain to watch maybe 603 00:43:56,390 –> 00:44:01,690 too much level to go to movie theaters 604 00:43:59,390 –> 00:44:06,890 in Bahrain or to go to bars and drink 605 00:44:01,690 –> 00:44:09,920 alcohol that is I think that is 606 00:44:06,890 –> 00:44:13,010 gradually changing because Bahrain has 607 00:44:09,920 –> 00:44:15,619 been turned into another Wahhabi state 608 00:44:13,010 –> 00:44:21,280 and there is a lover there is more 609 00:44:15,619 –> 00:44:24,460 influence from Saudi Arabia into another 610 00:44:21,280 –> 00:44:24,460 instead of 611 00:44:36,360 –> 00:44:41,239 [Music] 612 00:45:01,630 –> 00:45:35,750 so when I talk about reform if we talk 613 00:45:32,480 –> 00:45:40,310 about reforming Islam I mean reforming 614 00:45:35,750 –> 00:45:45,980 the religion and my concept that are my 615 00:45:40,310 –> 00:45:49,010 idea on that is to actually take what is 616 00:45:45,980 –> 00:45:53,390 positive and leave what is negative I 617 00:45:49,010 –> 00:45:56,030 mean it is a process that should take 618 00:45:53,390 –> 00:45:58,430 time and it is a process that Muslims 619 00:45:56,030 –> 00:46:00,710 should take care of nobody else can make 620 00:45:58,430 –> 00:46:04,940 them do it unless they want to do it and 621 00:46:00,710 –> 00:46:07,760 you really have a lot of versions of 622 00:46:04,940 –> 00:46:11,210 reformers around the world and the ones 623 00:46:07,760 –> 00:46:15,530 that I am with the one that I stick with 624 00:46:11,210 –> 00:46:19,670 are the one who are the knowledge that 625 00:46:15,530 –> 00:46:23,089 there are controversial violent verses 626 00:46:19,670 –> 00:46:26,410 in the Quran there are that that the 627 00:46:23,089 –> 00:46:32,330 Islamic heritage itself Islamic 628 00:46:26,410 –> 00:46:38,900 textbooks traditions are a main source 629 00:46:32,330 –> 00:46:43,400 for terrorism and radicalism and unless 630 00:46:38,900 –> 00:46:47,960 we find a solution to that part of it 631 00:46:43,400 –> 00:46:50,119 you know by saying well these are 1400 632 00:46:47,960 –> 00:46:52,640 centuries ago they own they could only 633 00:46:50,119 –> 00:46:55,130 apply back then we shouldn’t really 634 00:46:52,640 –> 00:46:57,320 bring them to the 21st century this is 635 00:46:55,130 –> 00:46:59,990 one way of dealing with them but unless 636 00:46:57,320 –> 00:47:01,760 we acknowledge that I mean unless we 637 00:46:59,990 –> 00:47:04,520 call it what it is 638 00:47:01,760 –> 00:47:07,099 I don’t think reform kind of can happen 639 00:47:04,520 –> 00:47:42,499 and this is why you know 640 00:47:07,099 –> 00:47:49,509 I talked about reform i won they are 641 00:47:42,499 –> 00:47:49,509 teaching voltage so there is no surprise 642 00:47:49,749 –> 00:48:15,680 a generation of changing I agree 100% 643 00:48:11,809 –> 00:48:20,029 and then when I said separating religion 644 00:48:15,680 –> 00:48:21,890 from state I mean I mean in the school 645 00:48:20,029 –> 00:48:24,710 you don’t you know we are not gonna see 646 00:48:21,890 –> 00:48:27,019 any religious studies you know it 647 00:48:24,710 –> 00:48:29,660 shouldn’t be taught to people then it’s 648 00:48:27,019 –> 00:48:31,609 called you teach people other subject I 649 00:48:29,660 –> 00:48:35,710 went to Saudi school myself and I 650 00:48:31,609 –> 00:48:35,710 understand exactly what you mean so I 651 00:48:36,369 –> 00:49:03,859 yes many moderates maybe eight is 652 00:49:01,700 –> 00:49:07,989 written on sticks in Saudi Arabia do you 653 00:49:03,859 –> 00:49:07,989 have any data that would support that 654 00:49:09,900 –> 00:49:15,460 thank you for the question 655 00:49:11,950 –> 00:49:21,180 um it was a long journey for me I mean 656 00:49:15,460 –> 00:49:25,120 as mr. O’Reilly mentioned earlier I 657 00:49:21,180 –> 00:49:29,130 wrote something regarding that you know 658 00:49:25,120 –> 00:49:34,410 when I visited the Holocaust Museum and 659 00:49:29,130 –> 00:49:38,410 it was it was a very emotional a visit 660 00:49:34,410 –> 00:49:41,440 knowing that I grew up hating Christians 661 00:49:38,410 –> 00:49:42,490 and Jewish people that I have never met 662 00:49:41,440 –> 00:49:46,920 in my life 663 00:49:42,490 –> 00:49:46,920 just because you know I was told so 664 00:49:47,820 –> 00:49:53,890 turning that page was really difficult 665 00:49:50,910 –> 00:49:58,930 extremely difficult and I would like to 666 00:49:53,890 –> 00:50:03,910 say that the only reason why I managed 667 00:49:58,930 –> 00:50:09,490 to change was through reading I read a 668 00:50:03,910 –> 00:50:13,540 lot and I you know I found that there 669 00:50:09,490 –> 00:50:17,710 are ideas that I haven’t been exposed to 670 00:50:13,540 –> 00:50:21,970 as I was growing up so the first thing I 671 00:50:17,710 –> 00:50:25,420 thought about was I told myself that my 672 00:50:21,970 –> 00:50:29,970 mind was occupied by something that I 673 00:50:25,420 –> 00:50:33,780 did not choose to I did not choose to 674 00:50:29,970 –> 00:50:38,950 have it in my mind and you know I 675 00:50:33,780 –> 00:50:43,840 challenged myself by asking questions by 676 00:50:38,950 –> 00:50:46,240 finding new questions to the to the 677 00:50:43,840 –> 00:50:48,280 answer that I get and every time I get 678 00:50:46,240 –> 00:50:51,220 more interested and interested and that 679 00:50:48,280 –> 00:50:54,370 made me to really question Islam itself 680 00:50:51,220 –> 00:50:57,820 question religion question you know how 681 00:50:54,370 –> 00:51:00,340 and I really think that I have the way 682 00:50:57,820 –> 00:51:02,920 of doing things and it took me it took 683 00:51:00,340 –> 00:51:06,460 me a while and I see a lot of people 684 00:51:02,920 –> 00:51:09,670 struggling with that nowadays when it 685 00:51:06,460 –> 00:51:12,430 comes to your second questions I really 686 00:51:09,670 –> 00:51:16,320 don’t have numbers but I am part of a 687 00:51:12,430 –> 00:51:16,320 lot of groups that are 688 00:51:17,260 –> 00:51:23,710 we’re a lot of group that have 689 00:51:20,040 –> 00:51:27,400 ex-muslims in them and they don’t go 690 00:51:23,710 –> 00:51:28,270 public because you know fearing for for 691 00:51:27,400 –> 00:51:31,240 their lives 692 00:51:28,270 –> 00:51:34,000 even the ones who lives here in the 693 00:51:31,240 –> 00:51:36,579 United States and a lot of the ones that 694 00:51:34,000 –> 00:51:40,180 I know are from Saudi Arabia they have 695 00:51:36,579 –> 00:51:42,059 these thoughts and they decided to leave 696 00:51:40,180 –> 00:51:46,329 the religion but they can’t really 697 00:51:42,059 –> 00:51:50,880 announce it if you go online you are 698 00:51:46,329 –> 00:51:53,980 gonna see a lot of people who express 699 00:51:50,880 –> 00:51:56,579 atheism or you know some of them 700 00:51:53,980 –> 00:51:59,200 compared to Christianity you know 701 00:51:56,579 –> 00:52:02,589 believing or thinking that is a more 702 00:51:59,200 –> 00:52:05,559 peaceful religion then you know the 703 00:52:02,589 –> 00:52:07,690 religion that they grew up believing I’m 704 00:52:05,559 –> 00:52:09,849 sure you will find some numbers but I’m 705 00:52:07,690 –> 00:52:15,690 being sorry I don’t have numbers for you 706 00:52:09,849 –> 00:52:24,520 a certain presentation thank you so a 707 00:52:15,690 –> 00:52:27,369 question there are times 2013 that 708 00:52:24,520 –> 00:52:29,589 stories on this that in some strains of 709 00:52:27,369 –> 00:52:32,680 asan they’re teaching them now was 710 00:52:29,589 –> 00:52:34,809 calling theology of rape and rape jihad 711 00:52:32,680 –> 00:52:38,859 as it didn’t work 712 00:52:34,809 –> 00:52:43,780 massive organized rapes organized by 713 00:52:38,859 –> 00:52:46,000 jihadists now that starts here bill huge 714 00:52:43,780 –> 00:52:48,309 war hasn’t happened here and why I know 715 00:52:46,000 –> 00:52:52,290 but the media covers everything the 716 00:52:48,309 –> 00:52:54,040 homeless does this amount of Wahhabism 717 00:52:52,290 –> 00:53:03,579 where has this come from 718 00:52:54,040 –> 00:53:05,710 I mean the story is about so sexual 719 00:53:03,579 –> 00:53:09,700 assault who created offensive internal 720 00:53:05,710 –> 00:53:13,299 bleeding and another one said she’s a 721 00:53:09,700 –> 00:53:17,349 little girl just leave her alone it’s no 722 00:53:13,299 –> 00:53:19,450 it’s a slave she knows nothing sex the 723 00:53:17,349 –> 00:53:23,920 man got down for you raped her and pray 724 00:53:19,450 –> 00:53:27,010 because this is a a a religious the 725 00:53:23,920 –> 00:53:34,100 thing that some of the 726 00:53:27,010 –> 00:53:37,970 little girls a minim we have all hears 727 00:53:34,100 –> 00:53:41,990 about what Isis have done today as it is 728 00:53:37,970 –> 00:53:47,540 and there are tons of stories online and 729 00:53:41,990 –> 00:53:52,360 you know it is known to people that they 730 00:53:47,540 –> 00:53:56,270 sold they sold they Aziz you know they 731 00:53:52,360 –> 00:53:59,120 consider them sex slaves and a lot of 732 00:53:56,270 –> 00:54:02,210 them were rape okay 733 00:53:59,120 –> 00:54:05,330 does it have precedence in Islam I’m 734 00:54:02,210 –> 00:54:09,530 saying yes I mean it happened it is part 735 00:54:05,330 –> 00:54:14,120 of jihad it is it is something that the 736 00:54:09,530 –> 00:54:17,450 prophet and his companions did and Isis 737 00:54:14,120 –> 00:54:20,150 and other groups are just following suit 738 00:54:17,450 –> 00:54:22,820 following what they have read in these 739 00:54:20,150 –> 00:54:28,160 books and they’re doing it so it is part 740 00:54:22,820 –> 00:54:36,790 of it and I you know I think it should 741 00:54:28,160 –> 00:54:36,790 stop it’s obviously I mean yes sir 742 00:54:48,090 –> 00:54:51,179 [Music] 743 00:55:40,540 –> 00:55:52,790 okay sorry about but again I’m just 744 00:55:51,380 –> 00:55:56,480 trying to say the minor reasons what 745 00:55:52,790 –> 00:55:58,670 actions like that studies the southern 746 00:55:56,480 –> 00:56:01,609 action is because of economic reasons 747 00:55:58,670 –> 00:56:03,770 and that weakness is they seek pardon an 748 00:56:01,609 –> 00:56:06,230 incident potentially rating people see 749 00:56:03,770 –> 00:56:11,780 how to be sexy and give it that guidance 750 00:56:06,230 –> 00:56:14,240 money whatever the boxer slightly I just 751 00:56:11,780 –> 00:56:16,910 want to ask you much do you talk about 752 00:56:14,240 –> 00:56:20,180 separation of church and state of 753 00:56:16,910 –> 00:56:25,089 Mossman stance – so we see they’re 754 00:56:20,180 –> 00:56:29,540 probably in capitalism where this is a 755 00:56:25,089 –> 00:56:32,310 German forgiveness when we go so this is 756 00:56:29,540 –> 00:56:36,480 a departmental side because it 757 00:56:32,310 –> 00:56:38,730 he chose Jordan in Turkey most of us it 758 00:56:36,480 –> 00:56:41,010 could be so the caucus on yoga it 759 00:56:38,730 –> 00:56:43,140 religion really won’t taste advantage of 760 00:56:41,010 –> 00:56:46,410 the entire site that’s just the nature 761 00:56:43,140 –> 00:56:50,940 of the month about this whole up you 762 00:56:46,410 –> 00:56:53,040 know separating church and see it with 763 00:56:50,940 –> 00:56:54,810 respect to Europa and most of the 764 00:56:53,040 –> 00:56:56,970 Western pool that’s a almost you know 765 00:56:54,810 –> 00:56:58,860 one of the years do surveys would be 766 00:56:56,970 –> 00:57:00,840 played process the house looking sixteen 767 00:56:58,860 –> 00:57:03,990 curves and centers that manifested 768 00:57:00,840 –> 00:57:09,720 itself in the American Revolution very 769 00:57:03,990 –> 00:57:11,370 violent on it so I love her but I was 770 00:57:09,720 –> 00:57:14,310 here to see the separation of church and 771 00:57:11,370 –> 00:57:17,300 state is being solution see what 772 00:57:14,310 –> 00:57:21,300 happened here is for the bidding in 773 00:57:17,300 –> 00:57:25,430 photography lots of other parts why – 774 00:57:21,300 –> 00:57:31,770 because I won’t have to be invited in 775 00:57:25,430 –> 00:57:34,560 simulations okay because one of the 776 00:57:31,770 –> 00:57:37,200 ideas that ambience is trying to sell to 777 00:57:34,560 –> 00:57:40,230 the West right now is that well if I 778 00:57:37,200 –> 00:57:43,860 modernize Saudi Arabia the entire Muslim 779 00:57:40,230 –> 00:57:46,830 war world will be modernized and I did I 780 00:57:43,860 –> 00:57:48,810 completely disagree with that the only 781 00:57:46,830 –> 00:57:51,630 way well 782 00:57:48,810 –> 00:57:55,170 Saudi Arabia as we all know it’s a very 783 00:57:51,630 –> 00:57:59,840 important country because of McCann 784 00:57:55,170 –> 00:58:07,530 Medina and birthplace of Islam but if if 785 00:57:59,840 –> 00:58:08,070 if he is not applying the reform that is 786 00:58:07,530 –> 00:58:13,470 needed 787 00:58:08,070 –> 00:58:16,890 none none is going to follow for example 788 00:58:13,470 –> 00:58:21,210 if he is not allowing different 789 00:58:16,890 –> 00:58:24,120 religious sect to to meet in the Grand 790 00:58:21,210 –> 00:58:27,360 Mosque and talk and reconcile and call 791 00:58:24,120 –> 00:58:29,670 for peace and all that it’s not it’s not 792 00:58:27,360 –> 00:58:32,760 going to happen anywhere if he is for 793 00:58:29,670 –> 00:58:35,250 example claiming to be Fatima Haram 794 00:58:32,760 –> 00:58:37,920 al-sharif in our custodian of the Two 795 00:58:35,250 –> 00:58:39,940 Holy Mosques and wants people to give 796 00:58:37,920 –> 00:58:43,180 him too 797 00:58:39,940 –> 00:58:46,030 give him allegiance in an Islamic way 798 00:58:43,180 –> 00:58:50,710 it’s not other as other nation are not 799 00:58:46,030 –> 00:58:57,000 going to follow but if he managed if he 800 00:58:50,710 –> 00:59:00,960 managed to to reform the country by 801 00:58:57,000 –> 00:59:03,580 allowing people to take part in in 802 00:59:00,960 –> 00:59:06,220 ruling their own country by allowing 803 00:59:03,580 –> 00:59:08,650 political participation I am sure that 804 00:59:06,220 –> 00:59:11,950 would have a great effect on the rest of 805 00:59:08,650 –> 00:59:15,070 the world of course if we cut right now 806 00:59:11,950 –> 00:59:18,130 if we cut the funding from this Muslim 807 00:59:15,070 –> 00:59:21,340 organ the Saudi organizations in Africa 808 00:59:18,130 –> 00:59:24,550 and Asia everywhere in the world I think 809 00:59:21,340 –> 00:59:27,910 we can see changes I think we can we can 810 00:59:24,550 –> 00:59:31,090 see people moving away from from 811 00:59:27,910 –> 00:59:33,520 Wahhabism because as I said part of the 812 00:59:31,090 –> 00:59:36,010 reason a lot of people are involved in 813 00:59:33,520 –> 00:59:38,230 this is because it says it’s a source of 814 00:59:36,010 –> 00:59:40,840 living a lot of people are making living 815 00:59:38,230 –> 00:59:45,190 out of Saudi Arabia because they are 816 00:59:40,840 –> 00:59:48,100 promoting the Wahabis him and the Saudi 817 00:59:45,190 –> 00:59:53,110 version of this now you know one thing I 818 00:59:48,100 –> 00:59:56,500 didn’t mention that mb/s and is instead 819 00:59:53,110 –> 01:00:00,130 of bringing different Muslim sects to 820 00:59:56,500 –> 01:00:04,590 this sect together he is actually 821 01:00:00,130 –> 01:00:08,860 promoting untied shears and by 822 01:00:04,590 –> 01:00:14,430 criticizing part of the Shia religion in 823 01:00:08,860 –> 01:00:19,030 a TV interview then accusing Iran of 824 01:00:14,430 –> 01:00:24,120 seeking to dominate over or occupy or 825 01:00:19,030 –> 01:00:28,740 take over Makkah I really think that is 826 01:00:24,120 –> 01:00:31,630 unrealistic and that is again is just 827 01:00:28,740 –> 01:00:35,520 fueling the tension the sectarian 828 01:00:31,630 –> 01:00:38,620 tension between different Muslim groups 829 01:00:35,520 –> 01:00:44,080 to sponsor your question more precisely 830 01:00:38,620 –> 01:00:47,860 I think he either has to listen to the 831 01:00:44,080 –> 01:00:50,010 people or just wait for them demise of 832 01:00:47,860 –> 01:00:53,460 the dynasty they also then 833 01:00:50,010 –> 01:00:55,170 because history tell Chavez history 834 01:00:53,460 –> 01:00:57,690 tells us that this is what’s gonna 835 01:00:55,170 –> 01:01:03,390 happen when people don’t listen to their 836 01:00:57,690 –> 01:01:06,030 nations when when they when they rule by 837 01:01:03,390 –> 01:02:14,210 themselves without including people this 838 01:01:06,030 –> 01:02:17,640 is the Alliance yes again it has been 839 01:02:14,210 –> 01:02:22,320 presented that MBS is trying to 840 01:02:17,640 –> 01:02:25,740 modernize order if you make it similar 841 01:02:22,320 –> 01:02:31,070 to the united arab emirate I really 842 01:02:25,740 –> 01:02:34,770 think that is thinking that is that is 843 01:02:31,070 –> 01:02:37,590 selling Saudi Arabia short I think the 844 01:02:34,770 –> 01:02:41,810 united arab emirate example is really 845 01:02:37,590 –> 01:02:44,250 not a great example it’s in fact in fact 846 01:02:41,810 –> 01:02:47,670 Saudi Arabia can be a better country 847 01:02:44,250 –> 01:02:51,000 than than the United Arab Emirates whose 848 01:02:47,670 –> 01:02:55,730 record in human rights is as bad as 849 01:02:51,000 –> 01:02:58,260 Saudi Arabia where workers been 850 01:02:55,730 –> 01:03:00,530 mistreated in the United Arab Emirates 851 01:02:58,260 –> 01:03:04,520 Saudi Arabia can do 852 01:03:00,530 –> 01:03:08,360 Saudi Arabia can can really be a great 853 01:03:04,520 –> 01:03:12,680 example in the in the entire world there 854 01:03:08,360 –> 01:03:15,200 is a great diversity of people in Saudi 855 01:03:12,680 –> 01:03:18,380 Arabia that you know maybe if you watch 856 01:03:15,200 –> 01:03:21,590 the World Cup I know they didn’t do very 857 01:03:18,380 –> 01:03:23,840 well but you can see some some some of 858 01:03:21,590 –> 01:03:26,480 that diversity in the Saudi team so the 859 01:03:23,840 –> 01:03:30,620 national team there is a lot of talent 860 01:03:26,480 –> 01:03:34,130 there because most Muslim people move 861 01:03:30,620 –> 01:03:38,080 from all over the Muslim world to Saudi 862 01:03:34,130 –> 01:03:41,390 Arabia this is what my grandma did and 863 01:03:38,080 –> 01:03:44,180 set out there so you have great 864 01:03:41,390 –> 01:03:46,070 diversity we can study Arabia can be 865 01:03:44,180 –> 01:03:48,110 something similar to the United States 866 01:03:46,070 –> 01:03:53,200 where you have people from different 867 01:03:48,110 –> 01:03:58,940 part of the world and you know 868 01:03:53,200 –> 01:04:03,170 intermarriages and if if we allow if we 869 01:03:58,940 –> 01:04:07,190 allow if NBA so if the government allows 870 01:04:03,170 –> 01:04:11,240 the right circumstances or the right 871 01:04:07,190 –> 01:04:14,980 atmosphere to all these talent to really 872 01:04:11,240 –> 01:04:17,900 flourish and and and express themselves 873 01:04:14,980 –> 01:04:20,750 there is no room for expression for 874 01:04:17,900 –> 01:04:23,480 people so how can you find all these 875 01:04:20,750 –> 01:04:26,540 talent how can you see all the different 876 01:04:23,480 –> 01:04:28,520 voices yes 877 01:04:26,540 –> 01:04:31,990 Saudi Arabia is in alliance with Egypt 878 01:04:28,520 –> 01:04:36,020 and the United Arab Emirates they are 879 01:04:31,990 –> 01:04:38,960 leading what is called the counter the 880 01:04:36,020 –> 01:04:42,950 counter-revolution in the Arab world 881 01:04:38,960 –> 01:04:47,540 this is why this is one of the themes 882 01:04:42,950 –> 01:04:51,430 that saudi arabian united arab emirate 883 01:04:47,540 –> 01:04:56,050 are using to tell their nations that 884 01:04:51,430 –> 01:04:59,600 demanding your right is going to lead to 885 01:04:56,050 –> 01:05:03,650 your country becoming like Syria Yemen 886 01:04:59,600 –> 01:05:06,920 or Libya which I really think it’s a 887 01:05:03,650 –> 01:05:10,790 wrong assessment I personally believe 888 01:05:06,920 –> 01:05:12,980 that the Arab Spring is the best thing 889 01:05:10,790 –> 01:05:16,359 that happened to the 890 01:05:12,980 –> 01:05:19,100 Arab and Muslim people period because 891 01:05:16,359 –> 01:05:22,840 they learned that they can change things 892 01:05:19,100 –> 01:05:28,310 and they have managed to change things 893 01:05:22,840 –> 01:05:31,400 now they saw it happening they know they 894 01:05:28,310 –> 01:05:34,220 can do it again and again so even though 895 01:05:31,400 –> 01:05:38,210 a lot of people say millions have died 896 01:05:34,220 –> 01:05:41,780 and other hundreds of thousands of 897 01:05:38,210 –> 01:05:45,700 people displays and you know move around 898 01:05:41,780 –> 01:05:49,369 the world and cities have been destroyed 899 01:05:45,700 –> 01:05:52,940 guess what I mean in Europe we have 900 01:05:49,369 –> 01:05:56,720 witnessed war before Europe become the 901 01:05:52,940 –> 01:05:59,600 Europe that we know and European nation 902 01:05:56,720 –> 01:06:04,580 when they have problems they get 903 01:05:59,600 –> 01:06:07,070 together and talk now the Arabs and 904 01:06:04,580 –> 01:06:09,470 Muslims really have to do that as well 905 01:06:07,070 –> 01:06:12,250 because at some point at one point they 906 01:06:09,470 –> 01:06:15,940 will get tired of fighting and the only 907 01:06:12,250 –> 01:06:18,940 alternative to fighting is talking and 908 01:06:15,940 –> 01:06:18,940 reconciling 909 01:06:33,230 –> 01:06:40,810 I’m sure thank you so much thank you for 910 01:06:36,530 –> 01:06:46,640 this illuminating fun I remember one 911 01:06:40,810 –> 01:06:49,520 Prince Mohammed bin Salman said that was 912 01:06:46,640 –> 01:06:55,280 very striking moment and he said Saudi 913 01:06:49,520 –> 01:07:02,420 Arabia is not a normal place and that 914 01:06:55,280 –> 01:07:05,630 was a criticism I will quote in the last 915 01:07:02,420 –> 01:07:09,590 days of the Soviet Union in my travels 916 01:07:05,630 –> 01:07:14,570 there I was constantly told by people we 917 01:07:09,590 –> 01:07:17,360 just want to be normal when you scratch 918 01:07:14,570 –> 01:07:21,710 the surface who discovered that they 919 01:07:17,360 –> 01:07:25,820 have no idea what normal imagine because 920 01:07:21,710 –> 01:07:31,100 over a period of 70 years it had been 921 01:07:25,820 –> 01:07:37,330 obliterated no there was no surviving 922 01:07:31,100 –> 01:07:41,180 cultural memory of normal and that’s why 923 01:07:37,330 –> 01:07:49,060 Russia is in the condition in which it 924 01:07:41,180 –> 01:07:49,060 is today the question being because does 925 01:07:49,300 –> 01:07:54,530 Prince Mohammed bin Salman does he know 926 01:07:52,040 –> 01:07:57,440 what normal gives his experience of the 927 01:07:54,530 –> 01:08:00,070 world he was not educated abroad his 928 01:07:57,440 –> 01:08:04,280 experience of the world is not that far 929 01:08:00,070 –> 01:08:09,320 number one number two I think it was 930 01:08:04,280 –> 01:08:14,920 King Abdullah who said absolutely some 931 01:08:09,320 –> 01:08:18,110 years ago if there were democracy in 932 01:08:14,920 –> 01:08:21,620 radio that we tribe would have a flatter 933 01:08:18,110 –> 01:08:26,990 I mean every tribe would have a party 934 01:08:21,620 –> 01:08:29,390 and it just couldn’t work both of my 935 01:08:26,990 –> 01:08:31,250 questions point to the same issue that 936 01:08:29,390 –> 01:08:37,010 is been raised by a number of people 937 01:08:31,250 –> 01:08:39,760 tonight that much of what you are hoping 938 01:08:37,010 –> 01:08:46,420 for and working toward can only work 939 01:08:39,760 –> 01:08:46,420 under certain cultural preconditions 940 01:08:47,750 –> 01:08:55,770 they noted summarize them and that it 941 01:08:52,500 –> 01:08:58,409 would be a broad embrace and believe in 942 01:08:55,770 –> 01:09:01,880 the principle that all people are 943 01:08:58,409 –> 01:09:09,659 created equal I couldn’t see that beat 944 01:09:01,880 –> 01:09:14,759 anywhere near the case my admittedly in 945 01:09:09,659 –> 01:09:19,440 your position is that very good 946 01:09:14,759 –> 01:09:23,730 questions does ambience know what normal 947 01:09:19,440 –> 01:09:28,830 is obviously he’s not the brightest one 948 01:09:23,730 –> 01:09:34,889 from you know his father’s dozens of 949 01:09:28,830 –> 01:09:35,370 kids or princes one of whom went to the 950 01:09:34,889 –> 01:09:39,389 moon 951 01:09:35,370 –> 01:09:45,210 long time ago thing 1990 maybe before 952 01:09:39,389 –> 01:09:52,139 that the only reason why MBS was chosen 953 01:09:45,210 –> 01:09:56,100 to be the next king is the fact that he 954 01:09:52,139 –> 01:10:02,610 is his father’s favorite son and number 955 01:09:56,100 –> 01:10:07,469 two he was told that he is the one would 956 01:10:02,610 –> 01:10:10,860 unite the royal family bringing the 957 01:10:07,469 –> 01:10:15,870 ruling back to to the household and then 958 01:10:10,860 –> 01:10:22,500 you know extending the household ruling 959 01:10:15,870 –> 01:10:27,480 of Saudi Arabia obviously again he was 960 01:10:22,500 –> 01:10:30,000 not educated in the West and some people 961 01:10:27,480 –> 01:10:39,690 tried to compare him to compare him with 962 01:10:30,000 –> 01:10:43,889 his uncle Faisal I don’t know if he 963 01:10:39,690 –> 01:10:46,560 really know what normal is i I think he 964 01:10:43,889 –> 01:10:49,830 can he said he learned a lot from his 965 01:10:46,560 –> 01:10:54,690 father but personally I believe he’s 966 01:10:49,830 –> 01:10:58,060 only Duty right now is to extend the 967 01:10:54,690 –> 01:11:01,360 ruling is of his family all the reform 968 01:10:58,060 –> 01:11:06,100 part of it is just cosmetics has nothing 969 01:11:01,360 –> 01:11:09,940 to do with the reality on the ground for 970 01:11:06,100 –> 01:11:15,460 King Abdullah statement well this is 971 01:11:09,940 –> 01:11:19,750 part of also the strategy is undermining 972 01:11:15,460 –> 01:11:22,900 the power of tribes because they 973 01:11:19,750 –> 01:11:24,850 normally tell the other tribes that you 974 01:11:22,900 –> 01:11:27,220 used to be nothing 975 01:11:24,850 –> 01:11:30,580 we’re the one who United you brought you 976 01:11:27,220 –> 01:11:34,080 together and you know made this state so 977 01:11:30,580 –> 01:11:35,320 without without us you’re nothing and 978 01:11:34,080 –> 01:11:41,380 tribalism 979 01:11:35,320 –> 01:11:45,880 is big in in most Bedouin societies and 980 01:11:41,380 –> 01:11:49,240 even in in Africa where I am from even 981 01:11:45,880 –> 01:11:53,130 in Africa when you have political 982 01:11:49,240 –> 01:11:56,200 systems most tribes have one 983 01:11:53,130 –> 01:11:58,540 representative I don’t think it’s a bad 984 01:11:56,200 –> 01:12:01,870 thing I think people would move away 985 01:11:58,540 –> 01:12:05,130 from it eventually it would start as 986 01:12:01,870 –> 01:12:08,770 tribalism I think in Iraq it’s somehow 987 01:12:05,130 –> 01:12:10,990 religious and tribalism but it’s it’s a 988 01:12:08,770 –> 01:12:13,510 practice democracy is a practice and 989 01:12:10,990 –> 01:12:15,280 when people you know the first time 990 01:12:13,510 –> 01:12:17,530 maybe they choose somebody from their 991 01:12:15,280 –> 01:12:19,870 own tribe the second time maybe they 992 01:12:17,530 –> 01:12:23,620 choose somebody who really present or 993 01:12:19,870 –> 01:12:28,810 represent their interests so this give 994 01:12:23,620 –> 01:12:33,610 people the right to be and unlearn it’s 995 01:12:28,810 –> 01:12:36,370 an experience unless you started you are 996 01:12:33,610 –> 01:12:40,030 not you’re not gonna know and people 997 01:12:36,370 –> 01:12:44,440 people have to experience it I would 998 01:12:40,030 –> 01:12:46,480 like to say that Saudi ruling family 999 01:12:44,440 –> 01:12:51,820 should stop looking at the Saudi people 1000 01:12:46,480 –> 01:12:57,160 as kids as children as babies the Saudi 1001 01:12:51,820 –> 01:13:00,610 people are very well educated and they 1002 01:12:57,160 –> 01:13:02,680 know their best interest give them a 1003 01:13:00,610 –> 01:13:05,040 chance this is what I’m saying another 1004 01:13:02,680 –> 01:13:05,040 question 1005 01:13:11,670 –> 01:13:17,020 I was wondering and I know that Sonny 1006 01:13:14,770 –> 01:13:21,430 was excited to uh start extreme too 1007 01:13:17,020 –> 01:13:24,100 risky so I was wondering yes looks to 1008 01:13:21,430 –> 01:13:26,110 diversify the economy away from oil in 1009 01:13:24,100 –> 01:13:29,110 part by attracting more tourists if you 1010 01:13:26,110 –> 01:13:30,820 think that will be like sort of aspirins 1011 01:13:29,110 –> 01:13:33,580 modernized or if you think you’ll be 1012 01:13:30,820 –> 01:13:35,170 more system where tourists or the oligo 1013 01:13:33,580 –> 01:13:38,710 Saudi and kind of like all the different 1014 01:13:35,170 –> 01:13:41,080 role than actual citizens I really think 1015 01:13:38,710 –> 01:13:45,070 it’s a good thing to open Saudi Arabia 1016 01:13:41,080 –> 01:13:49,900 for people um I I don’t see it as a 1017 01:13:45,070 –> 01:13:51,730 source of sustainable income for Saudi 1018 01:13:49,900 –> 01:13:55,060 Arabia I mean they already used hides 1019 01:13:51,730 –> 01:14:00,280 for that type of things and millions of 1020 01:13:55,060 –> 01:14:07,900 people go to Saudi Arabia for pilgrimage 1021 01:14:00,280 –> 01:14:13,050 prisons Saudi Arabia even though being 1022 01:14:07,900 –> 01:14:16,950 the most producer of oil in the world 1023 01:14:13,050 –> 01:14:20,410 the economy is really suffering as you 1024 01:14:16,950 –> 01:14:23,350 mentioned most of the general most of 1025 01:14:20,410 –> 01:14:25,600 the Saudi people are under 30 but now 1026 01:14:23,350 –> 01:14:28,750 they are really suffering because he 1027 01:14:25,600 –> 01:14:31,500 started applying our taxing people with 1028 01:14:28,750 –> 01:14:34,900 no representation of course so now 1029 01:14:31,500 –> 01:14:37,440 everything is more expensive for the 1030 01:14:34,900 –> 01:14:43,870 average so many people yet they don’t 1031 01:14:37,440 –> 01:14:48,880 have the jobs that they wanted part of 1032 01:14:43,870 –> 01:14:52,180 his strategy is nationalizing jobs in 1033 01:14:48,880 –> 01:14:57,190 Saudi Arabia meaning replacing foreign 1034 01:14:52,180 –> 01:14:59,470 workers and expert with Saudis and you 1035 01:14:57,190 –> 01:15:04,330 know there was a report that was 1036 01:14:59,470 –> 01:15:11,050 published – two days ago almost 100,000 1037 01:15:04,330 –> 01:15:13,060 of 800,000 of immigrants left Saudi 1038 01:15:11,050 –> 01:15:20,370 Arabia in the past two years 1039 01:15:13,060 –> 01:15:20,370 the reason being MBS started 1040 01:15:21,760 –> 01:15:26,810 charging people charging these 1041 01:15:24,800 –> 01:15:30,410 immigrants for their kids that they have 1042 01:15:26,810 –> 01:15:34,700 so if you have five kids you pay more 1043 01:15:30,410 –> 01:15:39,170 money and this fees increases every 1044 01:15:34,700 –> 01:15:41,470 single year so a lot of them decided to leave now companies are suffering because normally they would hire people from different part of the world who would really accept a reasonable decent salary and you know they work for they can they can live their life on based on that you know salary Saudis basically want higher salaries and you know less stress this is at least this is what this is what a lot of people be saying I know a lot of heart a lot of hard-working Saudis they work in restaurant and work is a job is a job there is no question about that it’s it’s it’s the way it’s the way it has been all the time because the economy in Saudi Arabia this is the way it was established this is how it was salvaged by bringing foreign workers paying them really low sellers and now when you try to nationalize all this job, the southern would not be enough for the Saudis because their expenses are higher. Thank you very much.

 

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